Henry Rollins Talks to Frederick Michael St. Jude on Van Halen, Studio Musicians, and the Lost Classic 'Gang War'

Henry Rollins has been around the world and back, literally, with music. The artist, actor, and personality has been a music fan and collector since before his days slinging ice cream and that now infamous call from Greg Ginn to join his favorite band. His latest obsession is Frederick Michael St. Jude, and his obscure LP Gang War, out now via Drag City.

Frederick Michael St. Jude's story is an interesting one; the Florida-based musician slogged his way through the covers circuit, releasing an LP called Here Am I before crafting an ambitious rock opera called Gang War in 1982. The LP was all but lost in the years since, with a handful of tracks appearing on a self-released seven-inch.

Now that Drag City have rescued this mammoth LP from purgatory, Henry Rollins has graciously cornered St. Jude to talk about the making of the record in an extensive interview spanning two parts (look for part two next Wednesday, June 10). Check out the conclusion of their conversation, which started last week, below.

HENRY ROLLINS: Do you think Gang War, as far as people being open minded to something eclectic, something different, do you think we're in a better place now than we were in the early 80s?
FREDERICK MICHAEL ST. JUDE: Well, you know, everybody's talking about counter culture, and that doesn't make any sense to me, I can't equate that. To me it's hyper culture. So many different little divisions of eclectic taste, that everybody seems to be in a different bag, and there's a lot of crossover things going on. It's very confusing sometimes. So I think Gang War should've reached the right audience, and if people are aware of what's going on, and what's going on in their own lives, I'm sure they'll appreciate it, I'm sure they'll make the connection.

Let's talk about the music itself. The songs are actually really good, and I remember when you sent it to me months ago, I said, wow, I really want to play this on the radio, and you said, go ahead, and I said, you know what, we shouldn't. This should come out properly, not piecemeal, like where someone could download a track that I had played, where some of the thunder gets stolen. What music was important to you around the time of recording Gang War?
Well, Henry, I'd be a liar if I told you no, I mean, I did 35 years on the road, Henry, singing cover tunes, you know what I mean? So there's gonna be something that brushes off. People compare me to Robert Plant, they compare me to Geddy Lee from Rush. I mean, I have so many different ways of approaching a song, even Bowie I'm compared to.

Well, I'm glad you said that, because, I'm not saying you're trying to be anybody, but I heard a little glam on this record, and I heard, just some Bowie­esque, not like you're copying anything, I want to be clear with that, but I just heard some Young Americans era, Aladdin Sane, even some Ziggy, just the hard rocking ­ almost Glam lean on some of the songs, like, let's see, "I Was Your Man", " New York City", and, what's my favorite one on this thing, "Give It Up". There's a real urban hardness on some moments of this record, like some great hard guitar parts, and the way your vocal is going into that, it just made me think of 70s, 80s, which would make sense because, that's when you were writing this stuff, that's when you were living. Did singing covers, which would have to make you highly versatile? You have to be that guy, and then that guy, yet at the same time you're going to interpret a song in your own way. Do you think that doing years on the road doing covers made you a more versatile musician and singer?
Absolutely, no question about it. Absolutely, I mean if, I mean the reason we got so much work back in the 70s was because we were doing a lot of Led Zeppelin, and the only reason we were doing it is because I could cut it. And then, when we were doing work in the 80s, we were doing a lot of work because we were doing a lot of Bowie, because I could cut it. [Laughs].

You know, there's a band you may have heard of called Van Halen. And they're from down the road from where I'm sitting, and they started off doing that grind. Two or three sets a night. Five, six nights a week. I mean really just pounding it out like no doubt you did. But they were local, they were just playing around Southern California, they wouldn't have to hoof it miles down the road. But because of their years of doing covers, and there's cassettes floating around of them doing Bowie, Budgie, and ZZ Top, it made that band really seasoned. So by the time they got a recording contract, there's really nothing on the bandstand that they couldn't tackle with a great deal of confidence. I've interviewed David Lee Roth about this, and he said that having to sing other people's great work gave him a real insight into music and some real confidence to do his own thing because he had to be so resourceful. So by the time you got to Gang War, you were a seasoned veteran of the road. Did that help you write 60 minutes of music in an incredible low amount of time?
It didn't help me write the music, but it helped me produce the music. It helped me interpret the music. It helped me give it an edge. It helped me understand where I was going. I mean, none of that stuff is haphazard, everything there is formula. You know, I was very very strict about it, and even in the little nuances, like in Western Front when it goes, where it stops and I go, [Sings] 'On the western front', that had to be exactly like it is. But, you know, I'm not a ball buster, Henry, I mean I didn't give anybody a hard time. I believe in the magic of the moment. And I would say to the guys, you ready? Let it rip.

It sounds like it. I mean, it sounds like you guys, it sounds really spirited. And it doesn't sound like you're holding back, and it just a real open, exciting feel. When you guys were mixing, was there an overall concept you were going for, because it sounds like from what you said, you're recording and you're mixing piece meal, four hours here four hours there when bartering and budget will allow. How were you able to get a cohesive overall to almost an hour of music, which is like wrangling a lot of elements, trying to get them all to get in line and behave, but I've listening to this record I don't know how many times now, and it never sounds like what you describes as far as its assemblage.
You know Henry, a lot of those cuts were done on the first take. The basic track. "Tearing My Heart Out" is a live recording. We just went into the studio and we laid it out, we nailed it on the first one, and we kept it. We didn't change anything about it except we did some overdubs. But, yeah, basically it was a free spirit running around going crazy, that's how it was, and when it came down to mixing, we mixed everything three days after the recording. Once we recorded it, we let it sit, then we came back, listened to it, and mixed that same night. Some night up until 4 o'clock in the morning, but we got them mixed, added a couple of things here and there, and of course, once we turned our back if Norman was alone in the studio, he added some more. [Laughs]. And never to any complaints here.

I hear ya. Are there any songs that didn't make it? Either that couldn't cut it once you got them into the studio, or songs that you wrote before you got into the studio that were thrown out in the making of Gang War.
So, here's the tragedy. Oh boy, you brought this up. This is a heartbreaker. Three different songs that were supposed to go in, that the master tapes got damaged, and by the time that we discovered that they were damaged, there was no way to go in to re­record them with the same people, so I said, you know what, we'll shelve them, we'll use them somewhere else down the road, and that's basically it. There was a couple of songs, one that was called "Time To Leave The Earth So Far Behind", which was an incredible song, but, boy that master got really messed up. I don't know how it happened, neither does Norman, probably in the storage, I don't know.

Right. Well, Florida is not going to be the friendliest place to a carbon product, you know? And so maybe the weather got to it. I, forgive me, I'm not trying to pour salt in the wound but I'm curious, how many minutes of music are we talking about?
Uh, probably about 20. 20 Minutes.

Ow. Wow. I'm sorry to have brought that up. That must hurt to this day.
Well, now it does, [Laughs].

Great. Tell me this, what are your personal favorite tracks on this record if you have any?
Ah, two of them. "Boy You're Not From Here" and "Maybe".

And 'Maybe' is almost to the end, it's an epic track, it's almost ten minutes long.
Yeah, that's like I said, that's the summation of Gang War.

Yeah, because the only thing that's left afterwards is just like, that tiny outro, which is just kind of a fadeout, right?
Yeah.

And so, how do you, and I hate to keep banging on the mechanical, although I just find some of the arrangements to be so fascinating. How much practice time, if any, did you have with teaching a bunch of guys a ten minute track, that is complex, that's dynamic, that's not straight ahead rock and rock. I mean, none of these songs are easy. Some of them may border on 'Here's a song, play it', but most of it has so much involved, are you guys learning this in the studio, did you have a practice space, how are you teaching your sessions guys to get this together?
Whenever I had a song, we'd go into the studio, we would rehearse it twice, everybody got their part, and then we'd record it. When we did "Maybe" we did two rehearsals of the song, which took about, maybe a half hour, and then we recorded the basic track. After that we spent the rest of the time, overdubs.

Wow!
Gang War had two rehearsals, the theme song, two rehearsals, one recording of the basic track, after that, overdubs.

And so, would you sing with the band live to keep everyone in place?
Everybody had, we had, Norman had two rooms, an ambient room and he had the band room. The band was in the room, we could see each other in the windows, and we would just count it off and rip!

And I know you said one of the songs is one take, live, done. But as far as your vocals and overdub, how hard were you on yourself, because those vocals are really tricky. And it sounds like you're pouring so much into it, did you at any time have doubts to getting it done, did you, you know, come in on a second day and get vocals or did it go pretty smoothly?
No, the only song that gave me any kind of a problem was New York City. And the only reason it gave me a problem was because Joey and the boys kept telling me I wasn't singing it hard enough. They wanted me to put more oomph in it! Yeah, so, you know it was more or less on the punchline, so I said you know what, I finally got the message, let me go in that live room and let me see what I can do. And, when I finally got around to getting the idea, I nailed it. I nailed it on the first take.

Wow. Okay so, you now have a, well, a new album out, basically. It's a 30 year old, thirty plus year old, new album out. Do you have any expectations as to how it's going to be received and have you heard from other people who have heard it, and have you gotten a basic barometer reading as to the reception?
The only people that I've heard from other than the people at Drag City, whom I'm told like it very much, was Gary Canino from Bomb Magazine, he likes it very much, and Bart from Dangerous Minds, he likes it very much. That's about all I've heard.

It's 2015. Fred, where are you at now as a player, songwriter and performer, are you doing gigs, are you writing new music, where are you at with music right now?
No gigs because I don't have the players, I live in small town Florida right now, just east of Tampa, the players around here are good, but they don't have, they don't have what I need. I'm used to playing with really, really high caliber players. Please don't take me as a snob, Henry, you know, I thought the band that you were with on the Dennis Miller show, they were great, I don't know, are you still with those guys?

No, no, no, but I've been really lucky, I've played with no one but samurai. I've played with killer musicians. I've never been in a band with a bum. Well, never for more than a few weeks. They either got kicked off or they left. But the band that you saw, that drummer has played with musicians all over the world, he's played on every kind of percussion instrument you can imagine, he can read sheet music, he's one of those guys he can play most of the instruments on any stage, and he's one of those world music guys, and the bass player, again, can play almost everything on stage, great producer, great songwriter, lacking in human skills but on everything else he is an absolute monster player. And so I've always been very lucky I've played with people who are very good because I've always made my world happen on the road. I'm one of those hundred nights a year and nineteen to twenty five countries a year types. So I can't be around people who are late, high, tired, or have a bad attitude. I mean, I can't exist in it, because it's a luxury, I've never been able to afford. So luckily I've always happened upon people who, you know, want to kill it or not even show up.
Yeah, you just described me.

It's hard to suffer the wrath of a bum musician when you yourself are trying so hard, anyone around you who's not willing to pull the sled as hard just leads to, almost a fury in the practice room, you know, it falls apart really quickly I've found.
Right. Well, as far as my future goes, I could probably still get the same old players back together. I spoke to Norman the other night about that, and Norman and I are still recording via computer. We've got two new tunes right now, as a matter of fact.